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I'm just had my tooth out on the NHS. A few years ago, I had a… - Sally's Journal
August 8th, 2006
12:38 pm

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From:wryelle
Date:August 8th, 2006 01:01 pm (UTC)
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I can see why some people might chose to be child free for all sorts of reasons, but I have to say I've never come across the idea that it is a more 'intelligent' way to spend time than having children. Surely, on any view, the human world needs human offspring - it really doesn't matter how fantastic a generations cultural and intellectual output is if there is no new generation around to enjoy and build on it. If a woman can't see that, I'd question her 'intelligence', regardless of her apparent educational level.
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From:aldabra
Date:August 8th, 2006 01:15 pm (UTC)
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It doesn't need *her* offspring, though, and arguably it needs fewer rather than more offspring. There's going to be another generation anyway.

IMLE there's nothing like having a child for zogging your intellectual capacity, unless you have someone else to look after it for you. I've never been so unintelligent as I was after a year of being woken up every three hours. It's not compatible with running the universe, unless you're very very lucky.
From:wryelle
Date:August 8th, 2006 01:36 pm (UTC)
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There's going to be another generation anyway.

If so it will be because of the choices of the "Heat magazine reading morons whose ancesters couldn't grasp the concept of taking a pill at the same time every day. "

Which I think, by the way, is pretty misanthropic and misogynist from someone who's view of her own moral superiority is so assured.

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From:aldabra
Date:August 8th, 2006 02:01 pm (UTC)
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Of course it's always been the case that the wealthy and successful classes have tended to limit their legitimate offspring, while the poor have large families. And we still manage to fill Oxbridge.
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From:lavendersparkle
Date:August 8th, 2006 02:04 pm (UTC)
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I'm a bit confused about whether you're talking about me or aldabra.

I don't think my statements are misogynist because in this scenario the moronic generation's forefathers were equally idiotic types who probably barely thought at all about the possible consequences of coitus.

Misanthropic you probably have me on as snobbery is my main prejudice but feel OK about it as long as I make sure I do things like support political parties that will make the tax system more progressive and such things that will make their lives better.

I don't think I am assured of my own moral superiority. Intellectual superiority, definitely, but the two are not the same and are not particularly related.
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From:lavendersparkle
Date:August 8th, 2006 01:49 pm (UTC)
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First of most people don't think that their own breeding will affect whether there's a next generation as they assume at least a few of the over 6 billion other people in the world will have babies and that by the time they get old pensions won't depend upon previous fecundity.

It's a stastical relationship that the number of children people have and their level of education and socio/economic status. Being child free is more socially acceptable amoung more intellectual sections of society. On top of this are the economic reasons. If your wage labour is only worth £5 per hour the cost of having a baby in terms of lost wages is relatively small, particularly if the benefit system is set up so that you may even end up financially better off with a baby than without. If your labour is worth £100 per hour the cost of gustating and raising a child are considerably more. Then take into account that more well paid woman is also likely to have a more fulfilling job and she has a lot less incentive to breed than a high school drop out on minimum wage.

In France the government have been fiddling with tax and benefit system to increase the financial incentive for middle class women to have children.
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From:pellegrina
Date:August 8th, 2006 07:12 pm (UTC)
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Nice condescending dig at CF women there, Wryelle. Nobody said intelligent people had more 'intelligent' ways to spend their time; just ways that they considered more worthwhile in the the context of their lives or the contributions they want to make to society. Otherwise we're just one step away from "I don't have kids so my taxes shouldn't have to support schools" or "You don't have kids so my kid's taxes shouldn't have to support your old age".

Time to get a new armoured cover for that hot button, Pellegrina...
From:wryelle
Date:August 9th, 2006 11:53 am (UTC)
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I'm not going to defend arguments I'm "one step away from". Only what I actually said - which wasn't any of that.

Actually it was out of attempted sensitivity towards you that I put in that "condescending dig" in the first place - but clearly I need to practice getting it exactly right...
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From:pellegrina
Date:August 9th, 2006 12:45 pm (UTC)
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Maybe try dishing out the IQ competition type remarks a bit less than. People by and large try to make the choices that are right to them, not sit around thinking "I'm an intelligent woman so I shouldn't waste my time popping out kids like any prole". Nobody's motivation for having children is to ensure an audience for the generation's cultural achievements.

Rereading this morning I can see the alternative explanation to what you wrote; but you still sound like you're judging women's intelligence on whether they essentially agree with you!
From:wryelle
Date:August 9th, 2006 12:51 pm (UTC)
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Er no - I thought that's what the original poster was doing. I can see perhaps why you might have thought that about what I wrote as well.

However, if you can get offended with what I wrote, but can't see why someone might get offended by the original comment, including throwing the word 'morons' around as a description of women with families - I'm not sure there's much point continuing here. I'm trying to be considerate but sensitivity and respect for other people's choices is a two way street.



From:wryelle
Date:August 9th, 2006 12:53 pm (UTC)
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In fact given the difficulty of this topic, and of our past track record of talking past each other in text, I'd say there's probably not much point continuing here anyway.
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From:pellegrina
Date:August 9th, 2006 04:12 pm (UTC)
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As you prefer. Though I would prefer you talked to me rather than to my past track record :-(
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From:pellegrina
Date:August 9th, 2006 04:07 pm (UTC)
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(third attempt *#@$&@$%"** People's Network)

In fact I read the 'morons' to refer to the readers of 'Heat' magazine without regard to their family status, actually. And having seen the magazine in the staff room at work, I do not fundamentally disagree with expressing a low opinion of anyone willing to spend money on it.
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