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Life continues. It was very good to whinge about being an… - Sally's Journal
May 31st, 2005
11:17 pm

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From:naath
Date:June 1st, 2005 09:39 am (UTC)
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No. I hate the tax bill brought about by other people believing that having children is a basic right. And also Too Many People Error.
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From:pjc50
Date:June 1st, 2005 10:28 am (UTC)

Joseph Mengele Institute for Population Studies

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You said elsewhere that you believe in the "fundamental human right to not get tortured", but you don't believe that having a child is a fundamental right? Where do you get your gnosis of rights from?

Is it not torture to have your child taken away from you?

Not wanting to pay for it is understandable, and the sort of thing it's possible to have technocratic discussions about, but splitting up other families to reduce your tax bill I object to.
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From:naath
Date:June 1st, 2005 11:04 am (UTC)

Re: Joseph Mengele Institute for Population Studies

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I Believe that it is not your right to have a child regardless of circumstances - ie that there are circumstances where you should not be permitted to have (or care for) a child - these being when you can't (or won't) care for the child: poverty, illness, history of child abuse etc etc the Child has the right to not have to live through the crap that parents are capable of inflicting.

I believe that it *is* your right *regardless* of what you did to not be tortured, locked up yes, fined yes, but not tortured.

So I think that it is your basic right to not be tortured but not your basic right to raise a child. Torture is generally considered a breach of human rights, taking away the child of an abusive parent is not hence it is clearly not considered a fundamental right to have and raise children.
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From:atreic
Date:June 1st, 2005 11:18 am (UTC)

Re: Joseph Mengele Institute for Population Studies

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Hmmm. You miss two points here

a) that you're (deliberately?) letting your definition of torture be what you think of as torture, not what the individual concerned would think of as torture

and

b) you're completely avoiding the "you have this right until you do something to take it away" side of things. Ie you have the right to walk down the street without getting shot, but if you were walking down the street threatening someone with a gun and about to kill them, the police would shoot you. This does not mean that walking down the street without being shot is not a fundamental right, does it?
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From:ixwin
Date:June 1st, 2005 12:00 pm (UTC)

Re: Joseph Mengele Institute for Population Studies

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As far as a) goes, I think it's fair to say that torture is doing things deliberately designed to cause people pain in order that they will do what you want them to so the pain will stop. In the case of taking a child away from its parents because they're unfit, that's not what you're doing, however great the pain that is caused to the parents as a result. The only way it might count as torture is if you were to take children away from parents and say "you can have them back when you've done x, y, and z".
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From:atreic
Date:June 1st, 2005 12:05 pm (UTC)

Re: Joseph Mengele Institute for Population Studies

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But this is what social services *do* do, where x, y, z are often "stopped being addicted to evil drugs". Their motivation is not to cause the parents pain to change the behaviour of the parents though, it's driven by the welfare of the child, but the action and effect is the same. Still, I suppose this is how we tell the difference between a surgeon and a torturer???
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From:arnhem
Date:June 1st, 2005 09:09 pm (UTC)

Re: Joseph Mengele Institute for Population Studies

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Your definition is good, except for the fact that I think that the word "torture" can also cover circumstances in which there is no intention to compel the sufferer to do anything.
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From:robert_jones
Date:June 1st, 2005 10:16 pm (UTC)
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Where does anyone get their gnosis of rights from? Is there any reason to believe that naath's is worse than yours?

I don't believe in rights in any objective sense; I don't understand what they could possibly mean.

I do believe in the European Convention on Human Rights. The right to not to be tortured (article 3) is absolute in the sense of being the only right to which there are no exceptions.

"Reproductive rights" seems like a particular dubious concept; what of people who are infertile?
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